TikTok Executive Refuses to Answer When Asked Repeatedly About CCP Data Sharing

Senator Hawley: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thanks to all the witnesses for being here. Ms. Pappas, let me start with you. I have to say it's great to see you here today. I have repeatedly invited your company to testify before Congress. I invited them to testify to the Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime and Terrorism in November of 2019, and I invited them to testify again in September of the following year. Both times, we were stiffed. TikTok told me that they would set up a meeting with the CEO; they didn't want to testify in public but they did set up a meeting with the CEO after November 2019. They then canceled that meeting. So, it's nice to see TikTok being willing to answer questions in public. It's a pleasant change. Let's dig into a few things if we could, specifically about TikTok's links to the Chinese Communist Party.

Ms. Pappas: In response to a letter from some of my colleagues, TikTok claimed earlier this year that the company has never shared data, never, with the Chinese government. Is that correct?

Senator Hawley: That is correct, yes. And has never shared data with the Chinese Communist Party, is that correct?

Ms. Pappas: We will never share data, period.

Senator Hawley: My question was in the past tense. Has TikTok ever shared data with the Chinese Communist Party?

Ms. Pappas: We have never shared data with the Chinese government, correct.

Senator Hawley: With the Chinese Communist Party?

Ms. Pappas: Yes, correct.

Senator Hawley: Have you ever shared it with members of the Chinese Communist Party?

Ms. Pappas: We have said many times, Senator, that we do have Chinese engineers based in China. I don't think there's any platform up here that would be able to speak to what you're talking about as it relates to the political affiliation of an individual. But I'm happy to assure you that we are ensuring the access controls around our data as well as the storage of that data in the United States.

Senator Hawley: So, I think you're telling me that there are TikTok employees or ByteDance employees who are members of the Chinese Communist Party, is that why?

Ms. Pappas: No, I'm saying I wouldn't be able to verify that.

Senator Hawley: Well let me just ask you that affirmatively. Are there TikTok employees or ByteDance employees who are members of the Chinese Communist Party?

Ms. Pappas: Senator, I'm saying nobody sitting on this panel could tell you a political...

Senator Hawley: I'm not interested in anybody's opinion. I'm asking you a factual question. Are there members of the Chinese Communist Party employed by TikTok and ByteDance? Yes or no?

Ms. Pappas: I wouldn't be able to tell you the political affiliation of any individual. What I can tell you is how much we're...

Senator Hawley: No, membership in the Communist Chinese Party is not exactly like membership in the Democrat Party. So I'm looking for an answer. You're telling me you don’t know? TikTok doesn’t know?

Ms. Pappas: Here’s what I can tell you. I can tell you that our U.S. and Singapore leadership, there are no CCP members. I can tell you...

Senator Hawley: So you do know that, but you’re telling me that you don't know if there are any members who are employed by TikTok or ByteDance, members of the Chinese Communist Party?

Ms. Pappas: Senator, I am happy to share that we are putting access...

Senator Hawley: That's not my question. My question is, are there any TikTok employees or ByteDance employees, members of the Chinese Communist Party? Yes or no?

Ms. Pappas: Senator, I'm saying nobody could sit up here and give you...

Senator Hawley: So you don't know. You’re saying you don't know. You do know your leadership isn’t, but you don't know about your employees. Is that your testimony?

Ms. Pappas: I know that everyone who makes a strategic decision at this platform is not a member of the CCP.

Senator Hawley: It's interesting to me that you're quite confident that anyone who can make a strategic decision... How many people is that?

Ms. Pappas: It's a leadership team. So a number, and again, the leadership team is based in the U.S. and Singapore. Our CEO is based in Singapore. He's not Chinese. Um, happy to go into the efforts that...

Senator Hawley: Would it surprise you to learn that Forbes magazine recently reported that at least 300 current TikTok or ByteDance employees were members of Chinese state media and affiliated with the Chinese Communist Party?

Ms. Pappas: Again, we don't look at the political affiliations or can't speak to individuals, but what I can tell you is we're protecting the data in the United States.

Senator Hawley: Well, apparently though you do look at political affiliation because you're quite willing to sit here and tell me that no one who has strategic input or makes strategic decisions is a member of the Chinese Communist Party. So you do know very well as a matter of fact, you just don't want to answer my other question.

Ms. Pappas: We have thousands of people that work at the company. So I’m not going to vouch on the political affiliations of any particular individual.

Senator Hawley: Have you seen the videos of Chinese Communist Party members conducting training for TikTok and ByteDance employees in China? It's fake?

Ms. Pappas: I do not know what you're referring to, but what I can tell you is that I...

Senator Hawley: Has that happened?

Ms. Pappas: ... any decision...

Senator Hawley: Has that happened?

Ms. Pappas: Sir, I just said that I couldn't be able to tell you. I haven’t seen it. I’m not sure what you’re referring to, but I’m happy to follow up.

Senator Hawley: Wait, wait, I'm sorry. Let's go back. Let's see if we can cut through the mumbo jumbo. I'm asking you if the Chinese Communist Party has conducted training sessions ever for employees of ByteDance or TikTok. Yes or no?

Ms. Pappas: Not for TikTok. TikTok, the app, does not operate in China.

Senator Hawley: So you have employees in China. ByteDance has employees in China. Listen, we’ve been through this song and dance. So let's just skip that. I've heard it all before. I appreciate that answer. My question, yes or no, have they conducted training for ByteDance employees or TikTok?

Ms. Pappas: I can speak on behalf of TikTok, and the answer is no.

Senator Hawley: No? That's interesting. Do any TikTok employees based in China have access to U.S. user data?

Ms. Pappas: As we have publicly said, yes, we have Chinese engineers in China, and...

Senator Hawley: But none of them are members of the Chinese Communist Party?

Ms. Pappas: We are working on the access controls to minimize that...

Senator Hawley: I've heard that. Frankly, I don't believe...

Ms. Pappas: ... in the United States and through the city.

Senator Hawley: Wait, wait, so your testimony is that you do have TikTok employees based in China who do have access to U.S. user data, but you're confident that none of them are members of the Chinese Communist Party and have never accessed it.

Ms. Pappas: Anyone who has access to U.S. user data has and does so to perform daily duties. So if it is for the performance of site management, um, bug handling, but we have strict controls in terms of who and how our data is accessed.

Senator Hawley: And none of them, none of that's accessible to any member of the Chinese Communist Party. Is that your testimony?

Ms. Pappas: We believe we have the strictest controls.

Senator Hawley: That’s my question, actually. That's my question. My question is, does any person who has access to user data, are they members of the Chinese Communist Party?

Ms. Pappas: I feel like I've answered your question.

Senator Hawley: You haven't, and I feel like you're avoiding it at every opportunity. So let me give you another one since you're on the record and you've got your own clear... Any person who has access to U.S. user data, are they members of the Chinese Communist Party?

Ms. Pappas: Yes, let me be clear again.

Senator Hawley: Yes or no.

Ms. Pappas: For our U.S. users, the data is stored and housed in the United States. We have access control...

Senator Hawley: You're not answering my point. Let the record reflect you will not answer my question.

Ms. Pappas: ... and security around that data.

Senator Hawley: Why not?

Ms. Pappas: Any of that data is overseen by our U.S.-led security team.

Senator Hawley: That's not the point. That's not my question. That's not my question. My question is, does any employee who has access to U.S. user data, are they members of the Chinese Communist Party?

Ms. Pappas: Again, as a global technology platform, there is no other company that could make that assertion either.

Senator Hawley: That sounds like a yes to me. That's, I think that's news. You're familiar, I know, with this BuzzFeed article that says, according to more leaked audio from more than 80 internal TikTok meetings, China-based employees of ByteDance have repeatedly accessed non-public data about U.S. TikTok users. Everything is seen in China, said a member of TikTok's Trust and Safety Department in a September 2021 meeting. In another September meeting, a director referred to one Beijing-based engineer as a master admin who has access to everything. These reports show data was accessed far more frequently and recently than previously reported. And your testimony is that this is false?

Ms. Pappas: Yes, that is correct.

Senator Hawley: So there are everything that you just stated?

Ms. Pappas: There is no such thing as a master account at the...

Senator Hawley: That's not what it says here. Someone is referred to as a master admin. But you're telling me that China-based employees have never accessed non-public data of U.S. TikTok users?

Ms. Pappas: No, we've already said on the record that we have Chinese employees who have access data.

Senator Hawley: Well, that's what this is saying. So you agree?

Ms. Pappas: If you want to clarify on each individual statement, I'm saying that there are strict access controls around the data that is accessed in the United States, overseen by our U.S.-led security team. We are working with Oracle.

Senator Hawley: That's not what this article says.

Ms. Pappas: We disagree with the categorization in that article wholeheartedly.

Senator Hawley: Oh, well, here's the point. I know there are other senators who want to ask questions. I think we're going to have a second round. What the truth appears to be, besides the fact that we can't get a straight answer on any of these questions, is that you have hundreds of employees with, it appears, access to U.S. user data that may very well be members of the Chinese Communist Party. You have no way to assure me that they don't have access to our own citizens' data. And you won't answer my question in a straightforward way about whether a CCP member has ever gained access or not. I think, from my own point of view, that's a huge security problem.

Ms. Pappas: Senator, if I may. We are one of the most highly scrutinized platforms. There have been many cybersecurity experts who have researched our platforms, including Citizen Lab, which is a leading academic research unit based at the University of Toronto, who have said, and I am happy to submit this for the record for the committee, that our research shows that there is no overt data transmission to the Chinese government by TikTok. TikTok's overt actions do not pose a threat to national security.

Senator Hawley: Wait a minute. Overt data transmission? Ms. Pappas, this isn’t a hearing for you to testify at will. You're here to answer questions.

Ms. Pappas: I'm providing you with...

Senator Hawley: No, you're not. You're just talking over me and you're submitting information from, who knows who funds this entity, who knows who's behind it, who knows what it contains. I don't know. What I do know is you won't give me straight answers to my questions. And the reason, I think, is pretty clear. Because your company has a lot to hide. You're a walking security nightmare and for every American who uses this app, I'm concerned.

Keywords

TikTok
ByteDance
Chinese Communist Party
Data Sharing
U.S. User Data
Senate Hearing
Senator Hawley
Ms. Pappas
China
Cyber Security

FAQ

Q1: Has TikTok ever shared data with the Chinese Communist Party?
A1: TikTok claims it has never shared data with the Chinese government or the Chinese Communist Party.

Q2: Are there any members of the Chinese Communist Party employed by TikTok or ByteDance?
A2: Ms. Pappas was unable to confirm or deny if there are any employees at TikTok or ByteDance who are members of the Chinese Communist Party.

Q3: Do TikTok employees in China have access to U.S. user data?
A3: Yes, TikTok has confirmed that Chinese engineers do have access to U.S. user data.

Q4: Has the Chinese Communist Party conducted training sessions for TikTok or ByteDance employees?
A4: Ms. Pappas stated that no such training sessions have occurred for TikTok employees.

Q5: How does TikTok ensure data security for U.S. users?
A5: TikTok claims to have strict access controls and that their U.S. user data is overseen by a U.S.-led security team, with data stored in the United States. They are also working with Oracle to minimize access.

Q6: What did the BuzzFeed article report about TikTok's data practices?
A6: The BuzzFeed article reported that ByteDance employees in China have repeatedly accessed non-public data of U.S. users.